Talk:Manyshot
Attack order Everyone here refers to Rapid Shot adding a second attack at the beginning of the round (AB/AB/-5/-10 etc). It's at the end of the round. GFallen (talk) 19:08, November 4, 2013 (UTC) Manyshot stacks with Improved Rapid Shot NWN2 Manyshot is powerful when stacked with Improved Rapid Shot and the Ranger's Favored Enemy feats. At level 11 (when Improved Rapid Shot becomes available), base attack bonus with no modifiers is +11/+6/+1. With Improved Rapid Shot active, it becomes +11/+11/+6/+1. With both Improved Rapid Shot and Manyshot active, it drops to +5/+5/+6/+1 due to the -6 penalty to attack bonus from Manyshot. However, the first two attacks (the +5/+5 ones) now each do double damage, since -each- attack is counted as two shots and all bonus damage (excepting sneaks and criticals) applies per shot. The utility of the feat should be clear -- it buys ranged damage output in exchange for attack bonus. It should be emphasized that Manyshot is not simply a "ranged" version of (Improved) Power Attack. (Improved) Power Attack gives a flat (+6) +3 to damage in exchange for a flat (-6) -3 to attack bonus. Manyshot gives a variable increase to damage (that depends on the properties of the ranged weapon being used) in exchange for a FLAT decrease to attack bonus (-4 at level 6, -6 at level 11, -8 at level 16). For example, a level 11 ranger using a +5 Mighty Composite Longbow (damage 1-8 + 5) would gain 6-13 damage in exchange for a flat -6 to attack bonus. If the longbow or arrows are further enchanted with additional damage bonuses, the ratio of damage gained, to attack bonus lost, becomes even greater. --Shrimp 21:32, 13 January 2009 (UTC) That is how i read the description. On 6 regular attacks (26 BAB) the numbers read; Imp rapidshot: +26/+26/+21/+16/+11/+6/+1 Manyshot: +18/+13/+8/+11/+6/+1 Sounds retarded to do, but remember the first 3 hits (on the -8 penalty) are 2 arrows. Altough they use the same attack roll (both hit or both miss), in terms of comparing for damage you should read it as followed; Imp rapidshot: +26/+26/+21/+16/+11/+6/+1 Manyshot: +18/+13/+8/+11/+6/+1/+18/+13/+8 So instead of same AB and 1 additional attack (6->7) you loose AB and gain 3 attacks (6->9). As such, your AB and your targets AC will determine if you hit often enough to make manyshot worth it. Kind of an buffed Power Attack, as the -AB is fixed (-8) while the increase in damage rises with your gear. Considering the bonus off 9AA for +5AB/damage and 1bard acces level giving another +1AB/damage from inspire courage getting it down to -2AB total it seems an easy choice; Early levels: (improved) rapid shot Late (epic) levels; manyshot Point of the feat Okay... maybe I'm a bit obtuse, but what's the point of this feat? The only thing I can think of is for those occassions when you think you can defeat your opponent in one round, but don't want to risk any counter-attacks during the round's "flurries", or against an enemy spellcaster, the multiple strikes from Manyshot all add up to make the DC for the caster's concentration check (if not, then this is even more worthless than I thought). At +6 BAB, instead of making two attacks at +6/+1, you make one attack at +2 for double damage. At +11, instead of +11/+6/+1, it's one attack at +5 for triple damage. At +16, you go from +16/+11/+6/+1 to one attack at +8 for quadruple damage. And a critical hit essentially just increases the multiplier by one, it doesn't double it. (Double to triple, triple to quad, etc.) Plus, you can't use Rapid Shot at the same time, even though it's a prerequisite. Okay, maybe when hasted, it might be possible to let fly a Manyshot and then Hide In Plain Sight, but that's about it from a usefulness situation. Or am I missing something here? Faldred 09:13, 25 October 2006 (PDT) :My server (Avlis) has the psionic class installed. That may sound off topic, but give me a bit. There's an instant use, standard action, once per round ability called dimension door. If I use it outside of combat, it goes off instantly. If I use it twice in a row, however, I have to wait 6 seconds for the second use. If I run for 4 of those seconds and then use it, I wait 2 seconds for it to go off. If I use it right away, I have to wait 6 seconds. :So, depending on the animation delay for multishot, you may be able to use it, run back some, and use it again, once every 6 seconds. That's something you *can't* do while firing off your +16/+11/+6/+1 standard attack set - move. Someone who actually owns the game try it and let me know how it works out. *chuckle* :For really strange epic builds we may someday see, multishot and autoquicken might interact in favorable ways as well. :-Apandapion ::I'll have a look at some numbers and crunch them. It may be this feat is near useless (there were a few like this in NWN1 where using them was simply pointless, or the feat was near useless). The recent edit piqued my interest and I am looking at the fighting feats in more detail and getting some notes - Jasperre 14:43, 23 December 2006 (PST) I don't quite understand the table. For example, what does "2 @ +5/2 @ +0/+1" mean? Two arrows are +5? Then another two arrows are +0? KaTTaNa 02:40, 24 December 2006 (PST) :Yes. I should add a note about that, ita done like that to save space - and it is only going off the in-game description (1.03) since it is noted as "fixed to work as described" in 1.04 I guess it'll be as poor then :) - Jasperre 03:51, 24 December 2006 (PST) Confusion I must admit that I'm a little confused about the usage of the 3.5E version as you've posted here. Due to it's wording, it actually seems more like using said feat replaces your atacks for the turn outright, rather then merely adding it. I.E. Using it with a BAB of 20 should give you 4 attacks at +12 completely replacing your regular +20/+15/+10/+5. As opposed to having 4 @ +12 as well as +15/+10/+5. The way you've stated makes considerably more sense though, seeing as a feat called "manyshot" should actually add attacks. And the way I've stated does nothing but decrease your accuracy. Sorry for the confusion, it's just that a friend told me this is how it works, based on the premise that a standard action replaces your attacks for the round. Unfortunately I'm too new to the PnP rules to argue otherwise. If he's wrong (which I dearly hope) then please explan why. Thanks. ;) Mortalis 21:34, 9 March 2007 (PST) :I might have got it wrong, would be worth researching and updating the page as appropriate. I had to make several revisions over me getting parts wrong so I might have got that bit off too. You might be completely correct, I never find the 3.5E rules explicit enough :( - Jasperre 05:53, 11 March 2007 (PDT) ::After studying through the rules a little more extensively, I have come to the conclusion that my friend is correct, and that many shot can only give you a maximum of 3 extra shots. ::Only the NWN2 wording talks about it affecting the first attack of the round, while 3.5E has clearly labelled it as a standard action, which would undoubtedly replace your attacks for the round. ::Conceivably, the best one could do with it is if they were hasted, there fore allowing them to perform the feat twice in one round (totalling 8 shots). ::*sigh*... and it had so much promise too. :( ::Mortalis 14:46, 12 March 2007 (PDT) :::The D&D 3.5 rules state very clearly that Manyshot lets you do 2 simultaneous shots at -4 attack roll penalty, 3 shots at -6 penalty, and 4 shots at -8 penalty. :::You might think there's no benefit - why use Manyshot when you can just full attack? The reason is simple - as someone has suggested above, Manyshot is only a Standard Action. This means, you can move your speed in the same round. If you didn't have this feat and need to move in the same round (or otherwise only have a standard action), you can only attack 1 time with your regular attack roll regardless of your BAB. Plus, in D&D you can choose whether to do 2, 3, or 4 shots (provided your BAB is high enough to do so). ::: This ability is especially useful when 1) you're chasing some fleeing enemy, and 2) doing a hit and run from a melee opponent (clever way to deal with raging Barbarians at higher levels until they run out of steam). The melee opponent can charge you and hit you only once (standard attack), but you can run and hit them more times, potentially. :::Hope this clears things up a bit. :::Meioziz 19:05, 14 May 2007 (PDT) Conclusion I've finally discovered a plausible reason to take manyshot in 3.5E. Unfortunately, it's purely to gain Epic Manyshot. Since epic manyshot has no limit to the extra shots fired, it also carries on into epic level BAB progression. So, with a BAB of 30 one could conceivably be firing 6 @ +18. And this of course could still be doubled using haste to 12 shots a turn. However, with such a low AB (and the lack of both critical and sneak damage), the quantity of shots may still not be worth it. Not to mention that 6 attacks a round can be easily replicated with much better results (RS + haste)... And this of course in no way makes NWN2's version any better (since I'm sure their epic version will be just as poor, if not poorer). Mortalis 15:16, 14 March 2007 (PDT) : Actually, Haste in D&D 3.5 doesn't double attacks at all. It's stated very clearly that it grants 1 extra attack at the full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers applicable. This means the first attack is doubled, essentially. : Besides that, Haste also adds +1 bonus to attack rolls, +1 dodge bonus to AC (stacks), +1 to Reflex saves, and 30ft movement bonus. : So, in any other situation than "Full Attack", the one additional attack does not happen. : See my comment in the Confusion section above for more info. :Meioziz 19:16, 14 May 2007 (PDT) Further to Meioziz' comment, haste doesn't allow double attacks, but does allow double standard actions. As manyshot is a standard action haste would allow you to perform it twice in one round. - No, it doesn't allow double standard actions! Read the Spell Description again. In terms of NWN2 it does seem to simply give you more attacks. In which case it is something akin to power attack. More damage potential assuming you have high enough to-hit. The analysis with regards to NWN2 is also invalid. The total to-hit VS AC is omitted from the table, this is important, it is easy to see why. Consider my character hits on 2+ with all attacks, which is better then? :Feel free to rewrite my analysis if you log in, which was based on a broken version of the feat in NWN2 anyway. I suppose if you have that much attack, I guess 1 additional attack over Rapid Shot with all having a 95% chance to hit is better then one less, but fighting that kind of monster it probably is kind of a moot point. - Jasperre 03:06, 31 March 2007 (PDT) What are the raw attack bonuses and amount of arrows fired for each level? We can only get this from level 6 onwards, and Rapid Shot provides one additional bow attack at -2 to all rolls. Improved Rapid Shot actually removes this penalty too. For crossbows, this can be obtained thought similar means too (but not for thrown weapons): Note: 2 @ +12/2 @ +7/2 @ +2/+5 means 2 arrows for one shot at +12, 2 arrows for one shot at +7, 2 arrows for one shot at +2 and one arrow at +5. Attack Bonus vs. AC reference chart Now the chances to hit a target at certain AC's with certain bonuses to our rolls: Conclusions There are bonuses and penalties for each types of attack: Normal attacks These have, of course, the highest average percent to hit in all circumstances. It also has the highest first attack hit chance because of no penalties. Use: * To have a slightly higher chance of hitting a target with any one single shot. * At lower levels where Rapid shot provides next to no bonus even with an extra arrow due to its attack penalties to all shots. * When you wish to use important ammo but not waste it if possible (use less attacks during the battle). If not, using Improved Rapid Shot is always recommended! Rapid Shot attacks These attacks are all at -2, but you gain an additional one at full base attack bonus. This is powerful - the averages to hit with all arrows are easy to note as being close to normal attacks for the range of values. It does also have the advantage of having 2 high attacks, but at -2 of the maximum BAB the character has. At lower levels this hurts more then simply attacking normally. At higher levels, this can be used by rogues and people with high critical hits (keen weapons or improved critical) to score off a lot of critical hits or sneak attacks in a single round. Edit: I propose that Rapid Shot is *most* useful at low level when you otherwise only have 1 attack. Consider, -2 AB means you hit 10% less often. (Unless enemy AC is completely out of your attack range, one way or the other). So, if you do 10 pts damage average per round, with a -2 AB, you'll be doing 9 pts damage avg per round. But with Rapid shot, you double your attacks, so that 9 is effectively 18 pts avg per round. The benefits of Rapid shot decrease rapidly as you get more attacks, since it still only adds 1 attack, but decreases the AB of all your other attacks by -2 Use: * At lower levels, against poor AC targets, while at higher levels, most targets gain the benefit of being attacked by Rapid Shot. Improved Rapid Shot attacks NEVER use normal attacks if you can use this feat. Its requisites are quite high so is only available if concentrating on ranged bow attacks, but the feat simply adds a full attack to your attacks. Using it actually increases the chances of hitting with attacks since it, for example at level 20, adds a second powerful +20 attack, rather then rapid shot which adds another attack, but also lowers the attack bonus of all attacks by 2. It basically shoots manyshot out of the water too. Use: * Use in place of any normal attack unless you are conserving important ammo, although simply putting less ammo in the ammo slot may work better (eg: if you are using dispel magic arrows, putting one or two in the ammo slot instead of a pack of 10 means it is a mute moot point saving the ammo). Manyshot attacks Its rubbish, from my final interpretation of it. Especially against Improved Rapid Shot. See the averages? see the chances to hit? yes, they are worse then a level 0 commoner baby trying to hit a dragon. Since the rules were altered from 3.5E, it made the averages useless. See past revisions for what I thought of manyshot as used by 3.5E rules, by having it simply have all the shots affected by the manyshot penalty, to be the same - but that isn't right. I do wonder what the point of the feat is - is there any additional feats which would make good use of Manyshot compared to Rapid Shot? I shall reveal the point to you. It's called HiPS. When you attack from HiPS your opponent is flat-footed. In many cases this means you can now hit the opponent with Manyshot (you can't hit him better with just IRS). The first Flurry of three arrows (with 7 attacks) is at double damage. Three hits at double damage every time you HiPS. That's what the point of Manyshot is.--Thorsson 08:19, 4 July 2009 (UTC) To add to the above. If you are an Assassin both arrows of the Manhyshot carry a Death Attack, despite no Sneak Attack on the second arrow. I should also note that if you get your AB high enough (which you can do with 9 levels of Arcane Archer for +5 to attack) then you can probably still hit with Manyshot, and that double damage just chews through the mobs. F/Asn/AA builds are particularly potent.Thorsson 18:46, July 18, 2012 (UTC) Comparison with 3.5E description The 3.5E actually is worth taking. Point in fact, you can hit something on average with only the first shot being used for manyshot! Important: 1.04 note! It is supposedly broken and will be fixed to match the in-game description in 1.04 - although it'd be better if it did just use the 3.5E rules proper! It might be the attack bonuses for all the shots that use manyshot to use the same attack bonus - we shall see I guess! Litle more about Manyshot I have found where this feat can be used. When AC of your enemy is very high (for example: Target AC equals or higher then Your maximum AB plus 20), then you don't loose anything by using Manyshot, becouse you can hit only if you score 20 in booth cases, but damage will be better. Another point is to use Manyshot with true strike spell(better quicken). P.S. Sorry for my english.(Ruskey) Combination? Just out of curiosity. Many shot is a full action skill where as Improved rapid shot is a Combat Mode. Wouldn't that mean that if you activated Improved Rapid Shot (which gives you an additional attack at full bonus) that the 2nd shot of manyshot also use that full bonus? (since on your character screen it lists it as 20/20/15/10/5) Still kinda pathetic since you lose the extra attack and what not, but still something to consider when you look at hit%. Leviinkrie 04:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC) Another reason I've found Manyshot useful is if you're dealing IFE damage (presumably this applies to AA arrow bonuses as well), when trying to gun down enemy mages from ambush without giving them a chance to respond. I've had an 8th level pc on a low-magic world scoring crits in the 40s and 50s, which is darned impressive for a completely non-optimized rp build. 03:52, 2 April 2009 (UTC)Happycrow